Episode 5: Breastfeeding and Returning to Work

This weeks episode I am joined by Kate Mugan from the Nursing Mama.
An insightful episode about how to empower families to find the breastfeeding journey that works for them. Tune in to get some wonderful tips and tricks for your return to work. As well as how to talk about breastfeeding as a first generation breastfeeder

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Transcript

Leaders Raising Leaders Nursing Mama 2

Summary

 Mothers should be aware of their rights and be prepared to build a plan in advance of returning to work. Support groups are a great resource to help mothers through the challenges of parenting. - Community breastfeeding support is available, but it's not essential for companies to provide a breastfeeding room. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to solids and babies. It largely just depends on what works for mother and baby. Pumping after a feed will help with building up your supply, butbreastfeeding will still need to be supplemented while working.: Finding a sleep routine and managing stress when a parent returns to work can be a challenge, but it's important to be mindful of the parent's sleep needs and to give them the information they need to make the best decision for their family. Introverted nursing mama founded Nursing mama to provide in person and online breastfeeding education for mamas. Hey everyone. I'm Tara async, and today we're chatting with Cassie from Nursing mama. So, Cassie, tell us a little bit about your nursing experience. Um, I've been a registered nurse for about 10 years now. And I specialize in pediatric and public health nursing. And I also founded Nursing mama about five years ago, which is a website and Instagram page that provide breastfeeding education to parents. And how has your experience been as a breastfeeding advocate? I think breastfeeding advocacy is really important, because as a nursing mom myself, I know that it can be hard to find support. And I think it's important to empower parents to find the information on their terms. What would you say are the benefits of breastfeeding for babies? I think breastfeeding is really important for babies because it provides them with the food they need. And it also helps them to regulate their own body temperature. What do you think are the challenges and triumphs of breastfeeding? I think the challenges of breastfeeding are that it can be hard to breast

Transcription

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 Welcome to leaders. Razor leaders. I'm your host, Tara async. Join me each week for insightful conversations with industry leaders, where we will be exploring the art of balancing work and life. We'll dive into the challenges and triumphs of parenthood shaping a path for change. Get ready for an inspiring journey filled with authentic stories. 3s Hi, Cassie. How are you today? I'm good. Thanks, Lillian. I'm delighted to join you today. I'm so delighted to have you here. For anyone who doesn't know who you are. What do you mean? Maybe tell us a little bit about nursing mama. And how? A little bit about yourself. Yeah, I suppose, um. Well, firstly, my name you can. I am the founder of Nursing mama. I am a mom of four, and I suppose that's my first job. And then I am a nurse by profession, so I'm a general pediatric and a public health nurse. And I was in, I suppose, health care up until kind of the last year when I've taken a little bit of a step back and I've gone into nursing more full time. Um, I suppose the reason I got into nursing mama predominantly was because I was as a public health nurse. This was over a number of years I had seen probably breastfeeding education and breastfeeding within the health care setting. Um, not doing so well in the kindest of terms, parents were getting. Receiving conflicting advice was the recurring theme that I saw frequently. And I suppose as a public health nurse in my kind of most recent role, I was seeing time and time again. Whether it was my parents having the same struggles, most of them were coming out of the hospital or any combination feeding, and really felt had they had better knowledge in the antenatal periods, they would have had a much better outcome on the other side. And so I decided to sit my exams and coming up to five years ago now, so that I knew that if I was giving you advice, it was giving up to date, accurate information to parents. And with that, I suppose I decided and just decided to do start out doing nursing where I would offer in person at Natal education in a local hotel and always go really well until Covid hit and everything shut down. And with that, I suppose it was probably the catalyst for nursing in that I moved online. I also at the same time had an Instagram page going and it just grew and grew. And I had then people looking for consults and attending classes from not only within Ireland but worldwide as well. So it's kind of just taken off from there. And I suppose it's an area I'm really passionate about. Obviously breastfeeding, a huge advocate and absolutely, you know, love to see things improving. But I'm very aware that it's not always the case and it's not always by choice or it's not always possible for every mother. So I'm very much a supporter of all parents with regards to them achieving their feeding goals. And I love the fact that you you know, I've seen some of somewhere that you were saying as well about empowering parents to find out the information on their terms as well, because, you know, as you mentioned about that conflicting evidence, I, you know, I have three kids myself. And in the hospital setting, I will say after having gestational diabetes to get those sugars up, one of the main things was obviously to, you know, they want me to want to feed and to top open things. Now, again, I was very lucky in the fact that I had reached out to to get the breastfeeding support as well there. But I feel you really do need that advocate, don't you? As a I call myself a first generation breastfeeding because neither like no one in my family had breastfed before me. And I feel that there's a probably a lot like me as well in Ireland who haven't fed before. So getting that information, as you said, on your terms, is is very important. Like when we talk about breast as best or fed as best really it's education is key. So a parent can make an informed choice. So yeah I think sometimes parents kind of receive such scaring news or your baby's going to drop blood sugars. And you must give this when sometimes we have to look at the context of it. We do need to look at how low the blood sugars are. What are the other options available in that situation. And it's not always formula that has to be the first line and excuse me, first line of treatment. And there are lots of other options. And that's why I suppose having antenatal education before you have your infant is such a huge part, because research shows that if you've intended or have better natal knowledge with regards to breastfeeding, the outcome can be better because it's where you can. Actually, it's the first thing I speak about in my classes. It's about asking questions. And by asking questions does mean you're questioning somebody else's authority or anything else. But I would always ask, why am I doing this? What are the benefits of doing this if I don't do as one of my other options? What if I hold off? And if you ask all those questions and you receive all that information, then you can make an informed choice and informed decision. I should say, about what's the best pathway for your feeding, for your feeding to go for it. And in some situations, a parent may not have a you know, they may have to. Supplementation of former may be the only choice, but that doesn't mean their breastfeeding journey needs to end there. It's about how do we look after our breastfeeding and support supply in order to get the baby back on the breast after, for whatever reason that may be? That's right. Yeah. Love that as well. Yeah. Think, you know, in the first few days you're getting so much information as well. And so, you know, having that information before you kind of even go into that situation is, you know, it really can help to just be like, oh, yeah, I remember saying that. And you know what? You're right. Like you even said back, you're kind of first generation breastfeeding. And there are loads of parents in that situation. And sometimes it can be quite a lonely and isolating place because you don't have that other person. You can't ask your mom or your friends. Um, but what we do see from that is that when your friends, your possible family members see you doing it, then it's like the ripple down effect. So more people say, well, if she did, I'll give it a go. And they're more open to trying it. So it is very positive. We are seeing more and more women deciding where they would never have seen it before to give it a go, but it can be a hard time for them because they really need to find their tribe. They need to find somewhere else that they can get that support with regards to feeding, because I suppose for the older generation and for other generations that haven't been exposed to breastfeeding or very little knowledge of it, what they may perceive is abnormal. It may be very normal for a breastfed infant. Definitely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I know my mom as well. You know, my lovely voice was my my three brothers in reality, but they definitely put on weight differently than what my mom would have seen. And, you know, with such a big family and things like that as well, it was trying to educate them for the honor on my first one was a loss for me as well. Actually needed support in that sense because you're guessing yourself, aren't you? Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because I would have some, um, sometimes I'd have grandmothers. I would have grandparents, aunts join when we do, you know, when they're doing the class, like it's really a family attendance. And I do think like sometimes I would go to consults and they'd say, please tell on whether this like it's normal. And that's not against the mothers. It's just I suppose their knowledge is limited with regards to breastfeeding and even mothers who did breastfeed, you know, 30, 40 years ago what the information they received was very different. Like, I know there's a, um, like a home page, a discharge page that was given to parents years and years ago. And basically it was on feed for every and, you know, swaddle, soothe like find other methods like it goes beyond how anyone actually maintained and actually was able to breastfeed with all those I suppose. Incorrect advice is amazing. Yeah, that's incredible, isn't it? Yeah. Instead of feeding on demand, I know that that was probably a concept that just wasn't there at all. Um. 1s I suppose use goes vary by routine in everything. That's it. Yeah, yeah. And I suppose I think we have a luxury and you know, you know as well. 1s I am even talking about, like with Covid and things like that, we have this luxury now kind of having a bit more work life balance where you can potentially establish, you know, boundaries from, you know, family members may be coming in and those early days as well, so you can establish breastfeeding a bit more as well. 2s Yeah. And I think, I suppose we're going back into the winter periods now. You know, there's a lot of fear amongst parents with regards to us with RSV because cases are rising. We've had very last year was a very difficult winter period. There's a lot of very sick infants. The numbers with admissions have already been higher. Again, we know this. Australia and the other side have had a very bad winter with regards to and their worst kind of season as well. So you know there's parents that are worried and I suppose in ways this protects. And we'll often see parents kind of staying a little bit more close and kind of closing down the doors to every Tom, Dick and Harry calling in is different from media family like grandparents, aunts and uncles. But there are a lot of times that years, like even before Covid, that you would have had, everyone would come, they would all expect to hold the baby and a lot of kissing on the face and everyone, including hand washing. You nearly felt that if you said to somebody to wash their hands, they'd be taken as a slight against somewhere as now. It's the done thing, and even the older generation are probably more aware of hand hygiene now than ever before, because they're protecting themselves so in many ways. And even over Covid, although there was less support available, we did see some women breastfeeding for longer periods, and I'd love to see if there's any research done to see how much. So because they didn't have anywhere to go. So it just kind of nearly trickled on longer than they expected. Whereas I suppose sometimes our lives can be so busy that it doesn't always suit because we're running from place to place to place, and not everyone likes to be an alternate. I know that that's probably a nice breakaway in reality, Katie, to kind of moms returning back to work then as well, because locally I suppose we are in this in Ireland. Most moms are actually kind of going back between the six months to a year mark in reality. So, you know, at that stage, you know, hopefully your breastfeeding journey is well established. You probably have your few routines in place, you know, if a mom is returning to work or a mom is returning to work, maybe in the next 2 to 3 months, what can they start doing to prepare themselves? Guess emotionally? Maybe first? 1s Well, firstly, it's just for every parent to know that there is no need to wean a baby from the breast in order to in order to expose in time of returning to work. Um, I suppose emotionally first, and I suppose it's just setting yourself up with how you plan to manage this. And I would firstly say that no, that there we have the amended work life balance, um, legislation in place, which allows and all breastfeeding mothers to breast be able to continue the breastfeeding journey up until two years and the workforce to wherever the company and the mother is working for has to oblige by this. So they're entitled to an extra hour paid break within that day. Furthermore, their under is returning kind of with a smaller infant. They may take the option of the four breaks so you get an hour, so they might take 15 to 20 minutes each four times a day. If they're maintaining pumping and just to protect supply. So I suppose if the returning then some of these would start building a little bit of a stash in advance of them returning so that the baby will have that with to give back to the infant for the caregiver when their feed, when they're feeding the baby, and then one of the weekends they would just continue feeding, as they always do. And there's no problem if you're talking about an older infant, this is where it makes it a little bit easier. Kind of from the nine month mark onwards, that baby can go without a breastfeed during the working hours, but if the mom was gone from eight, nine to 4 or 5, they can go without a breastfeed in that period and the mom will still need to pump to protect supply. So that obviously one they don't end up with issues themselves, but also on the other side, and that when they're at home at the weekends, everything else, they will feed on demand as they always have. But a baby can when they're on the solids and they're taking it obviously fluids for their sippy cup, they can go with our feet. Generally in the working out with the working hours, but they will make up first on the other side. So sometimes we see an increase in that very first fee, like the few feets before they go to bed, and sometimes that can pass through into the night. They'll make up for those extras. It just depends on the infant. And that can be challenging for a mother because I suppose sometimes less sleep. It's kind of hard to function and try to hold it all down, but it's very much depends. But it is very doable. Once the supports are in place. I want to just take you back a small bit, because I'd love to basically kind of touch on a few points that you made there. But talking about the supply first, and if I'm looking to maybe go back and build up my supply for kind of six months back, you know, I'm what is, I suppose, you know, am I going to have to pump and then feed as normal or kind of start looking at combination feeding while I'm building up that stash before I go in? No, you continue breastfeeding as you always did. You're just going to try and collect residual milk in the breast and they're after feeds. So like for some moms and they'll start kind of it could be any time that if they decide to go they're going back to work at six months, they might even start from three months on to collect a little bit extra after feeds and just build up that stash in the fridge. For some of this, they will decide, actually, I want to go down the combination route and that's fine. Either just depends on what they want. But if you're pumping post a feed and you know that your baby is going to feed kind of soon enough again, then we bring the pump back to back to the breastfeed. If for some infants, if they know that for moms, they nearly know they're kind of reaching the oh no. Look, I know they have a good spell in the morning that they might go to the three hour mark. And in that case, you might leave at an hour to let the breast refill a little, and then you might get more of an output. But a normal residual output post a feed for most mothers when they're well established, could be anywhere between 0.5 of an ounce and two ounces. So parents often plea regard if they got something wrong. I'm not getting anything out after the feed. And no, it just means your supply has tapered to what the baby needs. So I suppose that's where it can bring a it can make it a little harder in that for some women there are kind of like, oh my God, what am I going to do? Because I'm only making enough to meet the needs of the infant. And that means that's when you'd be just you'll get a little bit each time when you're trying to build up that, that stash, all you really need is maybe 2 to 3 bottles for that very first day. Because when you're away from the infant, you're going to be pumping and then you're replenishing the stock. So it's not it's not a huge volume that you need at that point. Remember as well, in that most breastfed infants don't, when you look at the back of a tin of a formula, you will see these these large volumes of six months. It could be 6 to 8oz, 4 or 5 times a day. A breastfed infant will never drink that volume. Generally speaking, if they've never been exposed to a bottle before or limit it, it's highly unlikely that they drink that volume. Because when the baby when your milk supply establishes around the six week mark, the volume you have told your body to produce is set for the rest of your entire journey, generally speaking, so it doesn't increase. So your volume that you have six weeks is the volume you have at two months, it's the volume you have at six months. It's the value you have for the year. It never increases as the baby grows, the composition of your breastmilk changes to meet the growing needs of the infant versus the baby. Thus drinks a bottle and has been formally fed. What you'll see is that that volume has to constantly change in order to meet the growing needs of the infant, because composition never changes. So it's highly unlikely when you go back to work. If your baby has always fed 3 to 4oz per feed, roughly just give or take when they're at the breast that they're ever going to take a 6 to 7 ounce bottle. And that's normal. So we don't worry. They feed very differently. They don't feed 320 they kind of feed like what they did previous. So they might take 2 to 3oz. And then two hours later they'll take 2 to 3oz. And then in 2 or 3 hours you might take four ounces. That just depends. But they will have solids incorporated as well. At that point. I think that's what a really handy piece of information though, for anybody going back to work, because we're such visual creatures as well. And, you know, when you're so used to seeing babies being bottle fed and all of a sudden you see a breastfed baby being bottle fed and it looks different, it can be very jarring. So that's really that's really good information to have. And then, you know, even suppose kind of following on from last time, Katie, when you were saying about feeding on demand at the weekends because that potentially would be different than taking your 15 minutes, you know, four, 15 minute breaks. That's it. As you kind of already mentioned there, it's not going to change that supply. It's going to stay the same. Exactly. I mean, you're pumping at the weekend. Won't protect yourself or pumping it during the day. I should say when you're at work is really to protect a mother as well and protect the milk supply. So when you're at home at the weekends, you just feed as the baby desires. So when the baby looks for it, you offer the feeds. For some women, kind of as the baby gets a bit older, what you may, what they may find when the baby moves on to salads a little bit more solids increases that for some infants at the breasts, they will either drop a feed part potentially, or they'd spend less time at the breast will feed just as often, so the feeds may be a bit shorter, and for others they may space them out like that. Like I said, merely drop a feed, or for others, they breastfeed like their newborns. There's no change whether you bring in solids or not. So it just depends for mothers that they may find the baby naturally kind of space as they feed. So that's fine. You follow the baby's lead and I suppose it's up to the mother. Like for some they'll say, actually, now that my baby's used to taking the bottle during the day, I'm actually going to keep it going. That's completely up to them. Whatever they decide, but they can mix and match. A lot of parents are confused, are worried that there's going to be confusion. And I suppose the biggest thing is that if a baby goes to the bottle and they're taking it very easily, the flow is very the flow is very easy for them to take. And that's where a baby can sometimes revert to the bottle a little bit more than the breast. But that just depends on how much they're exposed to the bottle. Generally, for a baby that has had littler exposure to the bottle, they don't turn into bottle lovers. And if anything, the biggest issue for most women will be bottle refusal. And I suppose that's why you always want in preparation of returning to work. And if you were moving to a bottle, I would say at least 6 to 8 weeks prior to a baby being to going that you would kind of look at it. And so even spells kind of naturally following on from that. Then when it when it comes to types of battle and things like that, you know, if you're particularly only looking at it that six, eight weeks before you start back, are you better off sticking with one type of battle or trying out a few, or what would you recommend? It generally always. It just depends. Like if a baby has never had any exposure, I suppose the one I find probably the most successful with any kind of bottle reversal will be the Lance snow bottle. For people abroad, the even flow balance will be kind of similar to cheap. Or the Dr. Brown's the old traditional, where it's a narrow base, long to be best options. But it's just to say that parents, you know, they when they get to this point and many babies will refuse, then it becomes a battle. I do a lot of consultations with parents on it, and it's important to think about that. It's not the only option. And if you were going back to work, it means that, you know, the sippy cup may be an option where you just have to be very cautious. We're looking at a free flowing or an open cup, but it just means the caregiver that's looking after the baby would have to spend a little bit more time when they're giving it, but babies can be very good open top feeders. We just need to be careful that they understand how to do it. But it's not the you know, a bottle is the easiest form for a small infant to take a larger volume with, 1s but it's not the only option. So any option, that's it. Okay. And that's about exploring it, as you said, going back then to what you said as well about the nighttime, because, you know, again, as somebody who supports moms, particularly trying to get that work life balance right, and you know, when you're first going back to work, I think it's one of the biggest struggles in reality. And even looking at the winter period now where we've got, you know, a lot of sicknesses in the crashes and everything else, like, you know, I mean, how again, how do you prepare somebody who might be returning to work for the disturbance and night and potentially, you know, the sickness and everything else? Right. It's not like I haven't found it like I was on my third. I returned to work just before he turned one, and he loved the breast. I mean, I struggled. He that's why I probably really am really passionate about weaning off breastfeeding as well, in that when a parent is ready, it's them having the support and the knowledge and how to do. Because I've received so much conflicting information even when I was doing it and I was told, just leave him, let him cry it out. And like I was like, it's never going to work for us. Um, but I struggled because I went back to work and he would wake and he wasn't probably the worst awakening. And now when I reflect back on it. But at the time I struggled, I found it really difficult at the time to hold it all together, be with it at work and be on top of my work and not be like I was so tired after last night and then, you know, manage doing it over and over and over again. But you know what? At the time, when I look back on it now, um, I know I think I went to bed a lot earlier than what I would. I would definitely advocate if, you know, you're going to have a bit of a tough time, just go to bed. It's time. It's kind of getting through those really tough periods and they do get better. I do the same with my last child and he was breastfed a lot longer. And it's funny. Like I always kind of said to my head for myself, it would be an odd one, was when I always would feed up until Covid hits and I knew he was my last. So like, I didn't really have any pressure. I wasn't really thinking of any more kids and we just kind of kept going. It was nearly easier to keep going than it wasn't, but he would have been my worst for not weakening. And I did struggle trying to stay on top of. But I went to bed a lot earlier, like there'd be some nights I'd stay up a bit later. But to be honest, when he was gone to bed a lot of time, it just helped his bed and caught as much sleep for me. I suppose it just depends on the individual other for me. Jack kind of. At that point it kind of moved into our battle. For me, co-sleeping was the easiest way for me to get as much sleep as possible in that environment. That doesn't mean it works for every single person, and that's kind of a parental choice and what they do. But I knew the thoughts of me having to get out of bed to keep doing this. That just wasn't an option, and it worked for us. We just went up the size and bed. We were super king and he has his own. He had a pillow and he just jumped in. And even though to be honest, he always sleeps in his own bed, but he could pop in any time in the middle of the night. So he's not looking for anything. He just looks for comfort. He sleeps on his own back, kind of like ground. And I suppose it is about having support around. It's about other people maybe taking on other duties in the household that really aren't that important. And as we know, the boys, that they're not on the top list of priorities and more, they're getting fed sleep and getting to spend time with her kids, I suppose, is foremost when we are going back to work, and preparation is definitely key. I would have everything ready for the creche or for the school run and the night before. Lunch is packed and crashes usually give the lunch just depends on what stage you're at. But literally having bags at the door, having clothes laid out and basically 1s clothes fed and out the door and that's basically it would have it all staged the night before. So there's this minimum stress as possible. I would have tried to rise before the child. And so if I knew that we had to be going to the House of eight, I would have been up well before seven. So I was washed, showered, ready, and then I'd take them up and get them ready and out the door. So this was in the early stages. It's just a very finding your groove, what works for the mother, and definitely getting some sleep and just making up for it at the weekend, sometimes having the bit of the lion. So we would have tightened in the area of stays where I might sleep in on the Saturday morning because he'd be up really early. He might have done on Sunday. It just depends. So now our lives are so busy with sports there's no sleeping in effort, but sleeping in was basically till 7 or 8. You just depended who woke first at six. So. But yeah, little things can help. But it can be a challenge. It just depends. And it also depends on the parents sleep meet. So for some parents they have very high sleep needs. And other parents don't have high sleep needs. They function much better than parents with high sleep needs. You know, and would probably definitely be on the, you know, the end of having a high sleeve need. And so my son is still breastfeeding at the moment. He'll come in to him five in the morning. My husband would bring him in to me and he'll see till maybe six, and then he'll take him to the room because he's awake and like he's after and his feet, he's off, like for the day. But I'll get that extra hour to sleep. And I find that extra hour is just that could make or break me the days that he is away. You know, I find it much more stressful. And where I do have to again over the weekend, try and find that even 30 minute nap. But I love the fact that you're advocating for that self-care as well for the mom, because I feel it's so important. And, you know, again, there's a conversation here, but around the different seasons as well. And, you know, kind of finding your groove might not happen straight away, but having a bit of self-compassion and just being like, okay, that didn't work. Let's try something different, you know? Yeah. And I suppose there's I suppose there is if something isn't working for a parent and they are really struggling, then they they make changes that suit their family. Is for me, it's just about being given the right information, particularly when it comes to breastfeeding and sleep. Because I hear so much conflicting advice where I suppose, and that's where sometimes sleep consultants and breastfeeding lactation consultants, we don't always marry very well, because we know that it can't be prescriptive with the breastfed infants in that a baby over six months, when they are formula fed on our bottles, we know the volume they're getting in the 24 hour period, so they get their feeds at seven in the morning till 10 or 11 at night. They have the potential. Absolutely. They've taken their quota in in that day period that they don't essentially need to feed overnight. It's about settling them in other ways. However, with a breastfed infant, it is very different because they feed throughout a 24 hour period, depending on their passion in order to achieve, to take in their milk supply. We can't suddenly take away those night feeds and say, well, you've had enough during the day. They definitely can't be hungry because we don't know what they've taken in. And even if we go back to them, feeding little and often is how they take in their volumes and what's available to them, we must consider that. So for me, I'm very aware that a moment can be going back to work at six eight months and they're really broken and they're exhausted, and they go to sequence that says, your baby doesn't need a feed at night, so you can take them off it. Now, I don't mind a parent making that choice once they are aware that it may in some situations impact supply, and we see supply dipping down. And as long as they don't mind and they say, look, I'm willing to change pathways if I have to, that's perfectly fine. But I don't like when I hear parents and I do consults all the time that the parent goes, I don't know what's happening. I think my supply is dwindling, and oftentimes it's the information they've been given was not accurate, and it led them to make a decision that they wouldn't necessarily have made had they had all the facts to hunt. So for me, it's just parents will, if they decide this isn't working for them, then make changes. But absolutely. But once they are aware they've made an informed decision, that's what's at heart. So yes, there are many that do struggle. They will change pathways and they're good at a combination. That's absolutely fine. It's whatever works for that individual, whether once she has all the information at hand to make that informed decision. Fabulous. And just this was talking then about having conversations with your workplace. You know I'm so it's brilliant, as you said, about the work life balance initiatives that are going on in work. And you know, that we now have that our like that does definitely make a huge difference there. You know, one thing that kind of was what was coming to my mind and what is there anything in place to say that they have to store your milk for you or you know, what's what's the situation there? Do they have to supply a space for you to store your milk? And well, there should be a fridge within, like, I suppose the company's now. And like none of them, the departments have policies and everything in place. The bigger, definitely the bigger organizations that have it. And the reason is. But his research shows that the benefits on improving health within place, like you've got increased production and motivational staff, you've got a reduction in absenteeism as well, because that can reflect on generally breastfed infants may be sick less or I won't say always, but they're generally sick for less periods of time. You've got an increased quality of work and productivity. And and it just it's a good public image for the company. So you'll see all the larger companies, Google and all the other tough ones. They have brilliant facilities available for staff. It is not it's not it's not an essential for the company to provide a specific workplace. They should provide somewhere that mother can go that private. That is um, it doesn't have to be just single. Yeah, it doesn't have to be single use though, like so. It can be somebody else's office. They could use their own office, they can have a room. And sometimes it's a kitchen where they just close the door and put a sign on it, and so that the mother can have some privacy and having somewhere to store it. So a fridge that will be present, but that can be an open fridge as in for anyone to use. But the mother would use her like a lot of the parents, when they go back, they might have like a little kitchen or a lunch bag and kind of cooler lunch bag, and they just put their, their product or their equipment and the bottles back inside it, just leave it in the fridge. So nobody would even know that it's breast milk. And but just once it's put at the back and the back of the fridge. And that should always be facilitated. Yeah. And I suppose it's obviously having an electric socket just in case the mother wants to plug in and pump things like that. But it doesn't have to be a requirement that there's an actual breastfeeding room. It can just be a room that's used for a short period. Amazing. And I know you mentioned as well about having that kind of community support aspect, what communities are there for for moms who are breastfeeding that they can kind of tap into. So we've got liquid you you're like public health nurse, great advocate. And you've also got the groups as well. That can be a big support for any new mothers that are starting out in the breastfeeding journey. But like I started my breastfeeding journey with Luke 13 years ago, he's my first and I was living in southwest. Carey had no family around really, and my sister in law was there, but she was working. Her kids were all older and there was no breastfed breastfeeding mothers in the area at the time. And I'm American public health nurse. And she was like, no, you're one of my first. I haven't had many at all. And she's like, you probably know more than I do. In fairness to her, she was just lovely. She was such a good support, in fairness to her. But she raised my baby every week for six weeks, and I remember looking at it and he was he was an absolute tank. And my mother kept saying, why did. She was like, I don't know, I just do it every week to wait and reflect back and like, why? Because like, I mean, I used to laugh because by the end of it, like by the time he had six weeks, he was 14 pints like he was. He was just a tank, like he was huge. And. But I used to go there with no breastfeeding support groups. We used to go to clarity to this breastfeeding group there just basically to get out and meet people. And I actually had a friend that was living there at the time, and I'm still to this date. There's three of us, and 13 years later we still have a connection and meet up and we like I definitely think because now we've got so many new generations and breastfeeding and most parents within new housing developments. No, you know, some neighbors straight off. So until you have kids and you're chatting and you become friends with them, a lot of parents just waved to the neighbor from the side. And because everyone's working during the week and you're busy at the weekends, but then when your kids are changes everything, and then you become to know your neighbors an awful lot more. So it can be quite a lonely existence in the early days, and finding a group that you click with. And it's not necessarily that you want to go and talk by breastfeeding. You want to go talk with bottle feed. You want to just go and socialize in a setting that's acceptable. If your baby starts crying, gets upset that you it's always acceptable, but that you don't stress out about it, or you don't feel like I'm bothering somebody else or anything like that, but you just feel it's a bit more of a calmer situation. And when you have somebody else with you and you kind of go, your baby kicks off. They always do it the most inopportune times. But when you have somebody with you that goes, God hate, that does not worsen. You're all kids after you. I'll move this for you. You stay there. Don't worry about that. Just automatically brings mother back down and they can take stock of granted. All right. Whereas if a mother's on her own or she feels out of place sometimes, then that heightens and heightens and heightens and that can be a negative experience, which then leads to a knock on back out again. I'm just not going to go there. I'll only breastfeed at home, where I'll hide in the car and have many friends that only breastfed in the car at home that wouldn't do it. And I'm like, just do it. Just do it once and you'd be fine. But it's building up that courage and that's where those support groups can save a mother. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm a massive advocate for crazy to think there are. Support groups are just incredible. You know, just going in for a few toys in the ground, have a tea in a coffee for a mom to sit back and again think it's even, as you said yourself, it's like, okay, my baby isn't actually as small as think it is, or he's not as big as think he is, or making all those little moments normal again, you know, and asking those questions like, oh, hey, look, this brand actually works better for me. You know, maybe I can try it right there. And, Katie, if someone is looking to get in touch with you, then how can they go about us? So I always tell them, follow me on Instagram. You get loads of free information, both breastfeeding formula, feeding combination, every type of feeding and do a lot of like. So you'll see kind of easy access to getting some questions asked answered by an expert. Otherwise you can pop over to my website. 3s And you can pop an inquiry through there. Or there's a list of classes of breastfeeding, formula feeding and 1s weaning from breastfeeding as well. And you've got a live version or a pre-recorded option. Yeah. And you can pop me an email if you need any consultations either. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me. Today is the last of a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much. 2s Thank you for joining today's episode of Leaders and Leaders. If you found these insights valuable, then there's more waiting for you in the show notes, where you can find our free guide packed with additional resources and tips. Don't miss out on future episodes! Subscribe, rate and leave a review. Your feedback fuels the conversations, and remember, you're not alone on this journey of leadership and parenthood. Until next time, keep leading, keep parenting, and keep redefining what it means to be a leader. Raising a leader.